Can Patricia and Quinn Fix This Defense?

I am fine with keeping Patricia one more season and I would have been fine firing him. Playoffs in 2020 or bust to me.

I am also fine with this offense overall. Not many tough decisions on that side of the football. Decker will get paid and he is an okay player. Wagner has not been good but we have Crosby for two more years too so no reason to panic at tackle. Glasgow needs to be re-signed and that is an easy decision. Marvin Jones is signed for 2020 and so is Golladay. Bring back Danny A. if we want. He was pretty solid this season. Pick whatever QB you want as a #2. I just don’t see major issues on that side of the football.

On defense however there are real issues. Slay is an issue. Pay the man or trade him and make sure he is happy and playing hard. But there are more serious issues up front. First, what role did injuries play in the demise of this DL?

Was Harrison ever really ready to go in 2019? That is a serious question. Past that Hand missed pretty much the whole season and he is a good player. Rookie A. Bryant missed most of the season but he was a rookie. Mike Daniels was just not ready to go and ended up being a bust signing. Okwara was also beat up and then we get to A’Shawn Robinson. What is going on with him?

To me this defense doesn’t get better by getting rid of Robinson. But what role is he good at and can we use him effectively? Was he also banged up? This DL was so beat up and they also played so poorly that I cannot evaluate play due to maybe guys being that banged up.

But this team isn’t better without Robinson even if we draft his replacement. We need to find a way to keep this guy. And if he will not re-sign here…one has to really wonder about Patricia and that locker room.

Bob Quinn was brought in here to draft better, get the cap under control and to build a long term future for this club. That all goes out the window if we cannot re-sign guys like Graham Glasgow and A’Shawn Robinson. We need those solid but not amazing players too. I know I will be watching how Quinn deals with Robinson and Graham closely but Robinson even more closely.

With all that said…there are also serious issues with the LBers too. I expect Tavai to have a solid off-season improving his awareness and technique but what are we to do about Jarrad Davis? How bad was his high ankle sprain? Can he play in this defense and if so where? Kennard appears to maybe be a rotational player at best now and that is also important but without two really solid LBers and a great set of DTs I don’t think this defense works.

Pretend we bring back this DL:
Harrison, A’Shawn Robinson, Flowers, Hand, Okwara and Austin Bryant. Then say we add DT Derrick Brown too as say Chase is gone in the draft. That is 7 guys and we likely keep 8 or 9 so there is room for more help there. Can this club win with that if those guys are all healthy in 2020?

To me the answer is NO…not if we don’t add one more quality LBer. I have my eye on one guy in particular that might make a nice pairing in Detroit:
the Chiefs Reggie Ragland.

I think Reggie may want to test the free market after his playoff streak ends as the Chiefs may not be able to pay him and he has been looking pretty good these past few weeks after not playing much at all to start the season. In fact, Reggie didn’t even dress for the Chiefs early. I don’t think we can rely on a rookie like we did in 2019 with Tavai. Reggie is listed at 6’2" and over 250 so maybe, just maybe that is what we need here with Jarrad Davis moving outside and Kennard playing more of a situational role?

Past that we have the Slay issue. We are also not better without him but he wants to get paid and it us possible he may not want to be here. If that is the case we MUST trade Slay but we need solid viable defensive starter in return.

This off-season is going to be one to watch as we have a lot of our own guys to lock down, we need at least one impact defensive free agent (NOT Reggie Ragland but he might be perfect here) AND we need to solve these defensive questions. Wow…that is a TON of work. Thoughts?

Need some play makers

Quinn can only save his ass IF he has a run on picking difference-makers BOTH in the draft and Free Agency. they run out and get a 6-win season in 2020 they get fucking broomed ! Now I’m sure Quinn is aware of this, but I’m not sure he cares enough to MAKE SURE that he lands playmakers/difference-makers. or if he even wants to be GM anymore. The last two seasons have been brutal and it didn’t seem like Martha was all that pleased with the results 2018/2019.

I’m not convinced that Quinn is not anything more than a “GM” in name only and/or just a place holder.

We will see if he has any balls to draft guys like Young and that . OR if he is willing to put in the hard work…must see offseason IMO.

I don’t know if they can but they better!

I think they can easily. We got decimated by injury on DLine.

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At this point I do not think so. Hopefully he will hire someone who can though.

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He being Quinn hiring a new HC or he being Patricia hiring a new DC?

Patricia hiring a new DC.

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Brodie, you say you don’t know what he’s good at but then you also say to keep him. I understand your being inclined to retain him, but if he’s not particularly valuable, then we have to accept it. He is a handful one-on-one. That’s it. That’s his value. Daniels is a handful, too, but Daniels is much more stout against the double-team. Daniels provides the versatility that the team is looking for, perhaps even over Snacks. 1-gap or 2-gap, doubled or singled, read-and-react or immediate pressure. Snacks and Robinson are both lacking. The difference being that Snacks can establish the nose and hold that spot on the line, providing more down-to-down value.

Coupla points: With respect to Glasgow, Robinson, Amendola, and others, the ball is in their court and who can blame them for taking the best offer if it’s not in Detroit? I do not think the Lions will overpay these guys, but somebody else might. I’d like to see all 3 back, but it could be that they’ll want to go elsewhere. Does that mean Patricia has lost the locker room? Probably, at least in some cases.

On Offense, I do think the Lions have to draft an OT to replace Wagner, and maybe Decker too if he wants to hit the FA market in 2021. If Glasgow leaves then there’s a big hole at OG/C, and I wouldn’t bring Aboushi back either. Love to see Amendola back too.

I’d sign a decent vet QB as our #2 guy, and have guys like Blough, Sloter, and whoever else battle it out for #3. I just don’t want to use a draft pick on a QB, unless we find out Stafford is going to retire soon. I would also be looking for a backup RB, I don’t have a lot of confidence in KeJo staying healthy for 16 games. Shoot me if you want to, but I wouldn’t draft an RB either; not until maybe in the 5th or 6th round.

On Defense, this is where the Lions have to get better, especially up front IMHO. Young or Brown would be a good start. Can DaShawn Hand play a full 16 games? Can Bryant? Will Robinson leave? My guess is he probably will. Daniels was a bust, wasn’t worth even half his paycheck. What about Kevin Strong? Can he improve his game? Lotsa questions with no answers yet. But I still build up that DL, lack of pressure leads to lack of wins, and I am God Damned sick and tired of watching mediocre QBs at best sit back there all day waiting for a receiver to come open. Fuck that, I want a pass rush, and that begins with your interior DTs collapsing the pocket. AND stopping the run. You can’t get all that done on the cheap.

Yeah, we need to upgrade the LBs too, either through FA or draft or both. Plus, I’m thinking that 2020 will be Slay’s last year in Detroit, so we better be looking for a youngster to groom as his replacement. Oruwariye might be a decent CB but I dunno about him getting to be as good as Slay is. All of which comes down to pressure on the QB. Fuck this rush 3 stuff, our back 8 aren’t that good, not yet anyway.

I’m a trenches first kinda guy. Give me a good OL and DL and we’ll win more games than we lose. That’s my focus going into the off-season.

The thing about this is that I really only consider PP an assistant DC. I think the D is all Matt Patricia and PP was brought in to coach Patricia’s D because he knows what Patricia wants to do. To me PP was just doing full time what Patricia can’t because as HC he has other duties.

I just can’t picture Patricia hiring a DC and saying “here your go…it’s your Defense…run it your way”. I think Patricia is the HC/DC and just needed PP to coach HIS D full time…to do the teaching part.

Maybe I am way off base though :man_shrugging:

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I still can’t understand what happened between the last half of last year and this whole year. they were playing decent defense. was it injuries to the dline? I know they were missing players to start the year but this D doesn’t look anything like last year.

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If the D was all Matt Patricia, you would have seen him with a playsheet making the calls. He wasn’t, because he wasn’t “running” the defense. Paul P was. Later in the year you started to suddenly see Patricia more involved in the defense, which included starting to make some of the calls. I do not believe Matt P with Paul P can fix this defense. So Matt P has two options. Actually RUN his own defense like Mike Zimmer does, or go out and get a more competent DC.

This is in no way an excuse for Matt P screwing up the defense to epic proportions. Its just a reality. He either needs to run it himself or find someone that can.

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I agree

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We hit a streak of teams that were not good on offense all in a row, so it made everything look better than it really was. Buffalo was 30th in offense. The Cardinals were 32nd and historically bad. The Packers have always sucked without Rodgers. The Vikings would have dropped more than 27 if they had to, but our offense was so bad it wasn’t anything they needed to do. The Rams game was good thru 3.5 quarters, but the reality is we still gave up 30. We did okay vs the Panthers. The Bears absolutely obliterated us.

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I don’t think this team, Quin or Patrica stand a chance unless they do 5 things and get them all right.

  1. Sell this team on the fact that this will not happen again and things will change!
  2. Get a viable Defensive mind to run the Defense (change the scheme)
    3.Sign the valuable FA we have on the team (i.e. Robinson, Slay, Glasgow, etc.)
  3. Throw money at UFA help - real playmakers (i.e. Derrick Henry, Dante Fowler, etc.)
  4. Draft smart playmakers and fill the holes on this team. We need Edge, DT, S, CB, LB, WR, RB at least depending on how FA goes.

I agree with what you say as well.
I just wonder if there is a DC out there, that is worth his salt, that can and is willing to run Matt P’s scheme.
So Patricia will need to decide if he wants to run it himself or let his scheme go out the window and hand the keys to the D over to someone else. And will that create a personnel problem?

The thread topics are getting insane
Of course they can “fix” the defense :roll_eyes:
No doubt the DL gets lots of attention this offseason
Next year will be a much different story
I have no problem believing it can turn in one offseason

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Some interesting thoughts in this thread. I like Sleats take that “of course they can fix it the defense.” I like that.

In 2019 the Lions added Flowers, Mike Daniels (a bust due to injuries), CB Coleman, rookie LBer Tavia at LBer, rookie safety Will Harris and a 5th rd. CB. We also added DE Bryant in the 4th I believe. We added a ver CB as well which we have done the past couple seasons. In 2018 the Lions added safety Tracy Walker (3rd rd.) and D. Hand. DC Teryl Austin was here in 2017 when we added LBer Jarrad Davis, CB Tabor (boy does that miss hurt right now!), LBer Reeves Maybin and CB Agnew. I think we also added Kennard too in 2018.

Point in the defense has been bad since 2015. As Wes pointed out bad offenses gave us an inflated sense of hope! Now we are back in the pits. BUT…as I point out clearly the Lions D is better than thus but injuries have been beyond brutal on that side of the football.

But can this be fixed? I mention Robinson as a guy we need to keep but one who confuses me. I think he has been and can be a strong run defender. We need to keep those kind of guys around as part of a better rotation. It seems clear we will add a top DL player of some sort in 2020 and that will help too.

But we cannot rely only upon rookies to put us over the top again. Wes also rightly points out that this defense needs t know who the leader is. If it is Patricia he needs to own this 100% and be all in. DB does a great job on offense so maybe Patricia can focus more time on defense? OR…hire a guy who will challenge him and work to field a better defense but one that might not be 100% Patricia. That is Matt’s call and he needs to get it right.

This defense is gonna need 2-3 quality free agents as well as keeping our own talent. The question about if players want to play for Patricia will be answered when we start looking to re-sign our own guys. If we lock them down to solid contracts folks are gonna know Patrica isn’t the beast people think he is…if guys bolt we are in trouble. The rumors about Patricia may be true. If say Glasgow and Danny A. bolt for market deals somewhere else that will say a lot.

We need DL help, LBer help and secondary help. Slay is a HUGE question. This puzzle is going to be fun to watch these guy put together as they just lost their scholarship and shit gets real in 2020.

I’m going to show a couple of replays against the lowly Arizona Cardinals that will make you reconsider how “valuable” Robinson really is. In reality, he isn’t.

I’m as desperate for building blocks here as anyone, but it is what it is.
Sing it with me…
Let him go, let him go-oh.

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