I agree. It’s a really awful positional pick. Quinn should have been fired right after the pick was announced.
Jacksonville is probably lower than Quinn is willing to go, but
Nos. 9, 20, and 73 in exchange for Nos. 3 & 85 would give the Lions Nos. 9, 20, 35, 67, and 73–five potential starting quality picks in the top 75.
Same logic applies to Okudah in my opinion but on a slightly lower level. The value for a non-elite CB is nowhere near #3 overall. Charles Woodson level type. The guy who dominated college football as a CB on a National Title winning team. Okudah might not have even be the 4th best player on OSU, let alone the #3 player in the NFL draft. Such an enormous reach it would be.
Just curious. If the Lions get Okudah at No. 5 or No. 6 overall instead while picking up an extra 2d Rd pick to boot, do you feel the same?
Yes. I think he is MAYBE borderline top 10. I also know CBs tend to struggle for the first year or 2 in the league. Which is why a lot of teams fill their secondary in the 3rd rounds or later.
I have said all along, I would rather pick up another corner when the cuts come along. There is always a bigger name or 2 that gets chopped to save $$ in the summer. It’s one of those position groups you can fill pretty easily in free agency and trades.
Lol. Probably right on BQ, definitely right on ol’ Make-it-up Rapoport.
He may be making it up
But there’s no doubt Quinn is having trade discussions in advance of the draft
As he would every year
That’s just normal pre-draft planning
There’s no need or value to “leak” anything— that’s just fan fantasy
Same kind of shit about Stafford getting shopped around. I’ll believe a media member has a source about this front office, well, never. Tighter than a duck’s ass, and that’s watertight.
The positional value thing
I get it but it’s not the only decision driver
Again, if Hockenson ends up having an 8 year, multiple PB career, it’s not a bad pick
Unless you’re taking a punter, any R1 pick that ends up with that kind of career was a good pick
Better than taking the positional value guy that busts
There’s also risk mitigation
Depends what you know about these guys
I’m not arguing it was a great pick
But the positional value thing is just ONE factor
Ducks better have tight asses
Those guys are constantly swimming around
Why are ducks sport team mascots?
The tight ass thing?
Here’s some context for you of elite tight ends rookie seasons…
Tony Gonzalez - 33 receptions, 368 yards, 2 TDs
Antonio Gates - 24 receptions, 389 yards, 2 TDs
Travis Kelce - Didn’t even play
George Kittle - 43 receptions, 515 yards, 2 TDs
TJ Hockenson - 32 receptions, 367 yards, 2 TDs, missed 4 games with injury and had two of the worst QBs in the league throwing to him in half of those games or close to.
Point being, rookie seasons aren’t kind to even the best tight ends so before some of you guys throw him in the trash heap, lets give him a chance.
I know you’re not trashing him entirely but calling him a 3rd round talent kind of is.
I know it seems to be the cool thing to hate everything Quinn does nowadays (and I get it to an extent) but lets gain some perspective here.
Some think it’s the cool thing but it’s actually sheeple behaviour
There’s more to it than that though. I might be going down a rabbit hole here, but bear with me…
Certain positions like CB and TE tend to take a year or 2 before the player develops into a legit starter. However, a top DE or DT or even OT can come in year 1 and have an instant impact.
High end defensive ends make 20 million a year. High end TEs make 10 million a year.
If you are going to basically throw year 1 in the trash for a TE or CB, wouldn’t you rather have a DE at a much bigger value?
Not only do you get a DE (who tend to play at a higher level out of the gate) for say 8 million (save 12 million per year, or get a TE and save 2 million per year after the rookie year of nothing?
It’s a position of terrible value that high. I would never take a TE or CB in the top 5, ever. I would take a DE or DT in the top 5 every single year.
Well, that’s another argument. My issue was the “3rd round talent” comment and the general frustration of a lot of posters already calling it a bad pick after one season. Regardless of positional value, if you’re getting a Kelce or Kittle who are huge impact players at #8, you’re getting great value for that pick.
Personally, I think Hockenson has a lot of the same traits of the elite tight ends, it’s just a matter of him putting the work in and the Lions utilizing him properly as a more featured player. Yet to be determined.
Fair. I still wouldn’t take Kittle or Kelce with my #1 pick this year or last year. I consider all good tight ends 3rd round talents. Hockenson needs to work his way to that level still.
You wouldn’t draft either of these players before 3rd round of 2020 draft knowing what you know today about their talent?
I disagree with that as well. Guys like Kelce and Kittle not only open up the middle of the field but they are also the focal point of defensive game plans so that frees up receivers to get more favourable matchups. Kelce wrecked the Texans in the playoffs, played a primary role in that comeback. I take either of those guys at 8 without a doubt, 3 is a completely different story.
Hockenson has a ways to go but he has the ability to get to that elite level. He has special physical talents.
I’ve said it for years. TE is the 2nd to last position group I fill on an NFL team next to WR. Yes, you need guys to fill those roles, but you don’t need to throw away draft capitol to do so. I mean what did spending top picks on Pettegrew, Calvin, Ebron and TJH get us? I remember our defense was damn near elite and we put the best team on the field in 25 years when we drafted Suh and Ziggy with top picks. Seems pretty simple to me.
This doesn’t mean I would NEVER take them, because never say never, but when you are a god awful team like the Lions that are many pieces away from being a solid and balanced roster, I sure as hell am not wasting a 1st or 2nd round pick on a freaking tight end, when our offensive and defensive lines are dog crap. I build those until they are awesome and fill the rest thru free agency and trades if need be.
If we had an elite defense, but the only thing keeping us from being great was outside run blocking and scoring TDs in the red zone, I might consider reaching for that last piece, but we were at least a half dozen pieces away from being competitive and we take a freaking tight end, then act surprised when teams gash our defensive line, we get no pass rush, we can’t run the ball and our QB gets killed.
It doesn’t matter what position you draft if you miss on the picks. I remember being stoked when we got Fairley to pair with Suh, what great value blah blah blah. Well, it turns out we would have been much better of drafting a guy at a position of lower value like Mike Pouncey or Jimmy Smith (if you’re going to categorize CB as low value), or Randall Cobb or DeMarco Murray or K.J. Wright or Richard Sherman.
Positional value only matters as it pertains to working the cap… what chunk of cash do they take up relative to their impact? But you can fill your first rounds with all the DEs and DTs and QBs and OTs in the world, and if they’re Dion Jordan, Nick Fairley, Blaine Gabbert and Greg Robinson, what good does that do? Give me better players than that, I don’t care what position they play.
Sure, but I am comparing elite players at various positions.
For instance, look at some of the best defensive ends and pass rushers in the league. Donald, Watt (both of them), Bosa, Jones, Jordan, Allen… What do they have in common? All taken in the first round.
Now look at some of the best tight ends in football.
Kittle - 5th round
Kelce - 3rd round
Ertz - 2nd round
Waller - 6th round
Andrews - 3rd round
Hooper - 3rd round
I mean, are there any good tight ends from the first round??? Lol. Some of this is because smart GMs don’t waste high picks on them. The Lions did 3 freaking times!!
Point is, you obviously can get a very high end, one of the best tight ends in the league in the later rounds. However, most of the greatest pass rushers come out out much earlier because they are more important, more expensive after the rookie deal, harder to get in free agency and make more of an instant impact.
For us to go with a tight end at 8 then roll out the worst pass rush in the league was more evidence of that. Now, going with a CB at 3 would be almost equally as dumb.