Magic Beans or Win Now; Building a Quinn Winner in 2019


#21

Eh, we were never going to be contenders. Taking the third round pick was the right move.

Would I like to see this team finally bet the house and go for it? Yes, I absolutely would. But the Snacks trade was dipping a toe in that, and how did the team respond? Oh right, they came out the next week and played like garbage.

So let’s review: add a critical new piece to the roster that can give you a legitimate shot at winning your division, and the team comes out playing like crap. Trade away one of your best offensive weapons while you’re still technically in contention for the division, and the team comes out playing like crap.

I’m seeing a common theme here. This team plays like crap. Give them new pieces, take pieces away, give them a shot at a team that will be battling for a wildcard, give them a shot at a team they’ll battle for the division, put a must win game in front of them. Crap, crap, crap.

That’s the level this roster is going to return to. So take the third round pick. And if you’re going to go all out, start in the offseason and build an actual defense.


#22

To me it’s the optics in the middle of the season. A lot of games left and they look like they’ve mailed it in with that decision.

As many had said, the game against the Seahawks was very telling with how poorly they played. So it can be rationalized that the season was already in doubt, but for me that mind set signifies a losing mentality by our front office.

That’s what has me frustrated. It’s just too early to give up.


#23

If people want to be pissed at the front office for giving up on the season, I get it. But then be pissed about the entire last offseason and the defensive roster they assembled for this year! That’s why I was so friggin pissed back in August. This team is not architected to contend for a damn thing.

They’ve looked a lot better than I thought at times, and when they do, you can start to see what Quinn has in mind and how it might all work. But don’t kid yourself, the Lions did not field a team this year that they ever believed had a serious chance to contend.


#24

From my point of view, I’ve given this team 50 years leeway.
Anything less than playoff birth is not acceptable…and yeah, I was pissed after the Cleveland game. And after the Jets game…
A coach doesn’t have the luxury of giving up!
That goes a hundred fold for the GM that put it all together. If they can’t find a way to win NOW?
Next!


#25

I get your frustration completely. I understand your view. But should a GM blindly go for it every year sacrafising the future or should they build for the long term?

This team lacks top end talent so it’s very hard for me to accept that Tate wouldn’t be part of our future. We need all the talent we can get. Tate wanted to stay. Detroit wanted to keep him. But … Tate also wanted Jarvis Landry money. He was looking for 16-17 mil per year and a 5 year deal. That’s a lot of money to give to a 30 yr old slot WR.

Miami had a tougher call last year with Landry. Landry was a young rising star that led the league in receptions. But he wanted top WR money and Mia said no to anything over 12 mil. They knew it wasn’t wise to pay a slot WR 16 mil a year. So they traded him for a 4th and 7th. They made the right call and so did DET. We did better than Mia did.

For me I ask myself. We’re we good enough to win it all this season with Tate? If the answer is no than the trade was the right call.


#26

I’m with you NFS–that was why I was so livid with Bob Quinn all summer heading into the season. There was ZERO urgency to improve the team this offseason, especially on defense. I posted that on the FB page repeatedly–why the hell does Bob Quinn get to slowly, methodically pursue a five year rebuilding plan, while other GMs know they better win or they’re fired? Quinn’s moves telegraphed that he viewed this year as a Mulligan, while Chicago, who started with a much weaker roster, goes out and gets Khalil Mack for a song…

It’s infuriating because obviously our division has never been more there for the taking. But Quinn decided not to try this year. Be as pissed at him as you want, but the Tate trade is beside the point, he made this call last spring.


#27

When Bob Quinn arrived I felt that he deserved three off seasons to right the ship.

I thought Jim Caldwell made Stafford better and was a leader of men type coach, but he needed to be fired for his lack of situational football competence, very slow starts and stubborn loyalty to coaches that were limiting the teams’ success like Lombardi and Prince.

Bob said he fired him due to there was more talent on the roster than a 9-7 record.

I hear what you’re saying with this past off-seasons moves, I actually put a lot of that on the moves made back in 2017…which were far worse from a FA perspective.

Tell me if this FA list gets anyone excited. I’m thinking Bob thought it was a pretty good haul…not sure if JC thought the same thing.

OT Rick Wagner - Signed to five-year, $47.5 million contract

LB Paul Worrilow - Lions agree to one-year, $3 million deal

DT Akeem Spence - Three-year, $10.5 million contract with Lions

DE Cornelius Washington - Two-year, $6 million deal with Detroit

CB D.J. Hayden - One-year, $5.5 million deal with Detroit

TE Darren Fells - One-year, $1.5 million deal with Lions

WR Keshawn Martin - Signed to one-year, $775,000 deal with Lions

G T.J. Lang - Signed three-year, $28.5 million deal with Lions

DT Jordan Hill - Signed with the Lions

LB Nick Bellore - Signed a one-year deal with Lions


#28

I have to go out on a limb here, but the Lions seem to be run by a professional general manager. He expects the players that are kept by the coaches are capable of stepping up in the tradition of the next man up. Therefore, when a return is available for a player 30+ who is going to walk at the end of the year and getting a third round pick for that player happens to be a no brainer, it is going to happen every time.
I cannot fault him for trading Tate. He is positioning the team as he sees fit. Tate wasn’t going to block any of those Vikings from sacking Stafford ten times. Tate wasn’t going to keep injuries to Lang and Decker from occurring. Tate wasn’t going to keep Stafford from pitching that ball.
So, magic beans are better than empty pockets…


#29

I think Quinn decided that fixing the Lions wasn’t a one year fix. I think he knew it was going to take time. It was obvious the Lions biggest issue was OL and run game. I get why he’s put the resources where he has. But… I’m not too happy with the results… our OL should be far better than it is.

In the last draft Quinn didn’t put much emphasis on fixing the defense. He tried to do that via FA as best he could. Personally I understand why Quinnn does what he does. Mayhew was more sporadic.

I think the Lions knew entering the season that they had a lot of areas to correct. They were expecting some of the youth to make a bigger impact than they have.
Robinson should be a bigger impact than he is. (Rumor is he came in out of shape)
Decker isn’t the same since injury.
Agnew is lost due to injury.
Tabor continues to struggle
Roberts isn’t developing as quickly as hoped.

Every GM has hits and misses so I won’t fault Quinn on Tabor. In my opinion that’s the only high end bad pick he’s mad. Robinson looked good in 16-17 but dropped off this year. I still think he’s a decent player.

But where I will fault Quinn is on the first round OL picks. Had he resigned Warford he wouldn’t have needed to draft Ragnow. Had he resigned RR he wouldn’t have needed to draft Decker. I know he wanted better players but the results aren’t there yet. Those two first round draft picks could have been used to fill bigger needs. This team desperately needs top end talent.


#30

I think the problem with Riley Rieff was not going to be fixed in anyway. He is not a left tackle. I believe he is playing right tackle right now unless there was an injury I don’t know about. We needed two tackles. Since, he needed to switch to right tackle and he had shown reticence, the Lions decided to move on from Riley Rieff. Rieff showed this in practice by flat out refusing to run plays. I know about it from a media person. The Lions did everything in their power to switch him.
Larry Warford was moved because the Lions were moving to a different blocking scheme. He was pro bowl caliber his first year and he has returned to that. Hell, Laken Thomlinson is doing better where we sent him. Such as it is, Decker, Glasgow and Ragnow are allstarters.
Injuries hit everywhere. Lang is hurt. Wagner is just not capable of holding the edge. He needs help.


#31

This seems to be a catch 22 situation I think. When Quinn brought in Patricia I believe he was expecting us to be atleast a 9-7 team, but I think we learned pretty early on that we were not that team (losses to Jets and 49ers)…so what do we do?

Historically we would just stand pat and see how the season unfolds. This year, as painful as it may seem, we made moves to improve the team going forward…thus appearing to give up on the season.

This team is not SB ready and one offseason is insufficient to make the changes we want and need. We had a major change in our defensive approach and we dont have the pieces to run it the way we want. Players like Zettle, I think were evidence that Quinn was trying to give Caldwell the players he wanted…so how does anyone think we could possibly give Patricia all the players he needs to run his schemes, in one offseason?

Like it or not we are in a retool, not rebuild as we have some cornerstones, mode and the shrewd moves we have made are necessary.

I don’t think we have given up on the season but think some players are mailing it in. Let’s see what one more FA period and a new OC do for this team.


#32

they won’t contend if the GM say well “fack it !” “I see this isn’t going anywhere…I give up.” in the middle of the damn season either…Tate deal made sense, doesn’t mean I have to like the fact he’s NOT here and we didn’t get a badass WR to replace him while we wait a year down the road to TRY and get one in the 3rd round. you just don’t give up on YOUR team during a season and claim your building a contender for 2019 !! wish I got paid $100.00 every time I heard next season. jeebus.

this really makes me have venom towards Bob Quinn…even more than the “I’ll pump money into one area.” “the defense will have to wait.” bullshit. you got to do more than pull guys off other rosters that barely freaking played…I like Hand and Harrison, but that doesn’t cover the faults of our defense “much”.


#33

I don’t know what some of you were expecting Quinn to do during the off-season with no cap space. We gave half our cap space to Ansah when we tagged him. ( which I was against ). You see what FA’s sign for? How was he going to bring in good players on defense and fill out the roster with 20M dollars? You can’t buy a steak dinner with a Burger King budget.


#34

But MCM, He’s had 3 off seasons to reform this roster into what ever vision he has. That’s 3 free agent periods, 3 drafts, 3 years to try to execute trades, and 3 seasons to manipulate contracts and our cap in order to get appropriate talent on this team.

I don’t know how much cap room he had in the 2016 off season, but I’ll give him a pass since he was just coming in.

But in the 2017 off season he had 40+ million in cap space to play with.

In the 2018 off season he had 40+ million in cap space again to play with.

He actually allocated 49+ million to 2018 free agent salaries this past off season. Which as you stated, includes Ansah’s tag. But even with that, it still left him with 32+ million to spend, just on free agents. He then had the draft.

Let’s take a look at what he’s done with our LBs over the last 2 years for example

2017 he added to our LB corps:

Paul Worrilow
Nick Bellore
Jared Davis
Jalen Reeves-Maybin

2018 he added to our LB corps:
Devon Kennard
Christian Jones
Jonathan Freeney

And our LB Corps is still lacking (which is a very nice way to state it). Folks are already saying we need to add an OLB and a ILB this coming off season

How many tries does Quinn need to get our LB Corps straight?

This is 3 years of Quinn working this roster and we’re exactly has it gotten us.

It goes beyond 1 off season of free agent moves. It goes way beyond trading our leading receiver. This is about his philosophy on building a team.


#35

I’m as frustrated as anyone.
I’ve been as critical of Quinn as anyone.
I gave him the nickname of Batman Boucher.
That said, and even with the 2 ugly losses, I gotta give him credit for the way we’ve changed out a handful of depth DT/DE players in a 4-3 for real 3-4 OLB’s.

Zettel, Washington, Barrett and Valoaga have become Kennard, Okwara and Harold. Plus they added Hand and Snacks.

I can look at the defense and spot a half dozen scrubs that will be swapped out for a half dozen more next year, but I’m still impressed with the strides made in the front 7. We went from a group of guys that would have dictated the scheme to a group of guys that more closely fit the scheme.


#36

Neither of those examples are accurate or even fair.

Sure he had that amount to start FA because we had so many players hitting FA. Just filling out the roster with minimum salary players left him with less than 30 mil to go after FA. He then had to resign Stafford and find a replacement for a retiring CJ. That’s why he bargain shopped the first year. The only real FA he went after was M. Jones. Which he had to do. By the time he filled out the roster there was nothing left.

In his second year (going by memory) he had around 30 returning players the rest were FA. Once again by the time he filled out the roster he had little left to work with. For some reason Lions fans look at the cap to start FA and go wow we have 40 million to work with. Let’s get these 4 great players. But you can’t because you may have 40 mil but you only have 30 guys under contract. 40 mil over 13 contracts isn’t much.

For LBer Quinn signed Worrillow to a one year deal. It’s obvious he was a stop gap until we found someone better.
Davis was a 1st rounder so it’s clear that he was intended to start. Bellore and JRM were depth guys. You turn those guys over nearly every year.
In 2018 we lost Worrillow and Whitehead in FA. and Longa to injury. That’s 3 bodies that needed replacing. We signed Kenard and Jones. Kennard was the only player that really got a starting level contract. Jones got a low end high depth level contract. Freeney was nothing more than a depth guy looking to make the roster.

Wether you wish to believe it or not Quinn hasn’t had a ton of money to go after top shelf players.

Right now the Lions are 8.6 mil under the cap. That’s basically what hes had left after filling out our roster.

I suggest going to sportrac. Add up this years salaries for every player that joined or resigned with the team this season.

Harrison 4.5
Kennard 4.3
Lawson 3.9
Ziggy 17.1
T. Wilson 2.9
L. Wilson 2.5
Jones 2.4
Diggs 2.1
Ragnow 2.1
Blount 2.0
Harold 1.9
Wiggins 1.9
Toilolo 1.5
KJ 1.1

That’s $32 mil in salaries right there and this isn’t even close to everyone we signed. This doesn’t include bonuses either. I’m just trying to show how quickly 30 mil is gone when you start adding in salaries.


#37

This is BS, I’m sorry. Dude has had three offseasons. No other GM in the league (except maybe Jerry Jones) takes their sweet ass time turning over a roster like this. Nobody else is on the five-year turnaround plan. At least nobody else who’s worth a damn. This is a win now league. If you can’t build a roster that’s ready to win in 3 years, then you’re not being aggressive enough. And someone else should have your job.


#38

Rem, he has had three offseasons to churn the roster but what I think people are missing is that 2 of the 3 were churned for Caldwell. Caldwell and Patricia run two very different schemes, and the players are not fully transferable. So in theory he has had one offseason with "his guy .

You cant say that he submarines Caldwell by forcing players on him because you can see by the defensive roster churn that Patricia did that that is simply not the case.


#39

Then hiring Patricia was a dumb ass move in a win now league! That, or keeping Caldwell for two seasons and building the roster for him.


#40

Wagner, Slay and Staffords contracts go nuclear this offseason…most of Ziggys money is gone in programmed increases to those 3. Even cutting Quin and losing Tate, the cap space next year isn’t going to huge.

They need 4 starters on defense (Ziggy, Jones, Tabor, Quin) and better options at slot, TE and RG. Plus probably bring back Blount cheaply to keep thhat hole filled.

With maybe enough cap to fill 2 defensive starters and retain what is here, it means they have to draft realllly well. Again.

This is not a plan for a 6-10 level team.