Make the Lions Great Again: An Attempt at Constructive Dialogue


#1

Hi all,

Barring an unlikely Lions turnaround this game (/season), I’m guessing all of us – myself included – will need to vent our anger and frustration toward leadership, coaching, players, etc. We’ve earned that right as fans.

But sometimes when the Lions suck, our toxicity ends up impacting the quality of dialogue in The Den. This is my humble attempt to turn the conversation toward constructive dialogue: how should the Lions be rebuilt? If the season continues at this pace, do we blow it up and start over? Are there reasonable pieces in place to get us closer?

Feel free to talk about Fixing the Franchise, either in this thread or others, remembering that while venting is healthy, getting toxic/getting into infighting just ruins the experience. We’re all in this together.

Nate


#2

#3

Unfortunately, Quinn would have to be fired. So that means Patricia is not going anywhere unless Quinn does. Sure it could happen but I don’t think Martha and daughters et al have the ovaries to do so.

The only thing we could do is weed out old guys like Quin, Lang, Wagner. Dump JBC and try to go get a brilliant offense mind waiting in the wings.

Other than that, I don’t see what the Lions could possible do to improve.


#4

JBC has to go. I’ve seen plenty of teams with lesser offensive talent do damage against us so it’s unacceptable that with stafford, marvin, Galladay, and Kerryon that we can look completely lost on offense for parts of games. Every game you hear announcers say how hard the lions have to work for every yard.


#5

Its what you say, the obvious targets are JBC, Lang and Quin. Wagner is a lot if money for a RT…maybe you flip Decker there, but a FA LT is mongo cash and usually not available. It’s almost 9 million dead cap to whack Wagner though. The trouble may be he is trying to make up for Lang/Wiggins.

IDK. They seem stuck with “play better and draft really well” as a strategy.


#6

Hey, what’s another 50+ years anyway? As bad as things are on the O Line, we have absolutely no pressure from our DEs. With Snacks in place, this team needs that edge rusher that would possibly make Nevin Lawson look serviceable.


#7

Need 3 new coordinators. Our ST, defense, and offense are all under performing.

Special teams is just brutal. Not even sure what to do there. Penalty on EVERY return. Prater and Martin are mostly good at what they do. It’s the coverage, and the non stop penalties that kill them

Offense is tough. Blount is no longer an NFL talent. We have so much invested into an O line that can’t block anything. I would definitely be shedding some money there. Stafford has been on his back non stop, and his receivers aren’t really getting any separation for him. But I also feel like he can play better himself. He has had some bonehead plays. I don’t move on from Stafford yet, as I know how hard it is to find a quality QB.

Defense just lacks the talent. Okwara and Snacks have been very good additions. I can’t wait to rid the franchise of Ziggy. Just need to invest a lot into the defense. Between Ziggy, Quin, and some of those OL, I think we should have some money to help put into the defense, and OL


#8

Wagner is terrible, so you need a right tackle and you need another DT and probably a couple linebackers. On the play the Tribisky ran for a 1st down late 40 got lost in the line. He was watching for that play and still failed. Not sure if he is the man or not at this point. After trading Tate either 2 things were happening. He was whining about the Patriot way (other then the losing LOL) or they pretty much mailed it in knowing that they were close to competing for a anything this year. It was amazing how the Bears receiver got so wide open. I have to believe scheme is what is doing that. The Lions offensive Scheme is not good enough. Now remember the Lions arguing about the unfairness of not being able to sign a coach that is in the playoffs. I think this is all also a factor. All the Lions got were crumbs for coaches by the time they got their coach hired. One thing I didn’t see was quit, just confusion.


#9

To me the most disappointing thing is Deckers play. He was drafted to be a franchise LT and had a promising rookie season. Right now he looks like a complete bust


#10

The Franchise can’t be “fixed”, per se.
The #1 overlaying issue (Ownership) is permanent.
I digress…

…,Therefore, they need to ‘luck’ themselves into at least ONE magical year - like the Cardinals had a few years ago.
That may not happen until a) Aaron Rodgers retires, and b) the Vikings’ defense falters. I believe it will FIRST take winning the Division AND earning a home Playoff Game…


#11

We start with new coaches across the board. I don’t think we can come close to evaluating some of these players at this point. Wagner was good last year. Decker was good before his injury. Almost every player on this team is playing worse this year. That has to be coaching. I know people did not like Caldwell but he got the most out of his players. We need some better defensive talent but not a lot to be competitive. We need a more creative OC and a more aggressive DC IMO. I honestly think our roster is not bad - we have some holes but we are not talent deficient. A edge rusher, CB and TE are probably biggest issues. Next would be LB’er but that is not a complete rebuild. Just get some decent coaching and a scheme designed for your players not the other way around.


#12

All of Ziggys money goes to the bump up in Stafford, Slay and Wagners contracts. Wagner cut means you have 9m dead cap. So you have to pay his increase and have a guy you thought was good, or pay 9m cap to make him go away AND pay his replacement, who is now a new guy w no chemistry. Wagner is underperforming in part because Lang is terrible and so is Wiggins.

Quin buys you 7m cap space. Tate is 7m Generally it looks like the Lions will have enough to make signings of 2 starters of enough quality to matter. The rest has to be draft, internal promotion or longshot get lucky cheap FAs…

They have to get a #2CB so Lawson isnt exposed. They have to get a rush end as Okwara is a rotation guy. They need a ILB next to Davis. It would be nice to add a safety, but between Diggs Walker and Wilson it could be ok. Maybe not.

Have to replace RG as Lang should retire. Clearly they need a slot receiver and probably replace Blount. That is 5 or 6 starters and a guy or two who will have significsnt PT. It’s hard to turn that many starters in an offseqson, especially w/o a lot of cap space.

This still leaves guys like Chr. Jones, A Rob, Lawson and whoever our nickel corner is as guys you need to replace but probably cant due to bigger holes elsewhere…and of course we need a TE while we watch Ebron become Kellen Fing Winslow…

THESE FUCKING GUYS HAVE TO PLAY BETTER.


#13

I don’t see what value Blount brings. We still can’t convert 3rd and short.

The only time the offense looked a little in sync is when Stafford just started slinging it

Forget the run game. That’s just not going to happen with this QB and Oline. Line up 4 every play and throw it every down


#14

We need speed on defense. Lots of it. We also to figure out the OL (still) and another playmaker but I think with a creative scheme I think this offense as is can be okay. Our defense doesn’t have a chance. Simply not enough althleticicm in the back seven nor enough pass rush coming off the edge.


#15

I dont really see how faulting Quinn helps. The guy has found the only playmakers we have. Hand, Kerryon, Harrison, Agnew (preinjury), Ragnow, Golladay, Marvin Jones. He has found solid NFL players in Robinson, Maybin, Decker, Glasgow. Thats pretty solid quality.

Now, he hasnt been flawless. Theres been some huge misses. Tabor chiefly. Davis is still on the spotty category. The RB debacle of 2017. Resigning Ansah despite annual injuries for huge money.

I dont think Patricia has been a monster difference maker, but defense has lost some major players in Slay (who hasnt been right since the beginning), Agnew and of course Ansah. On offense, this team is in clear regression.

Right now, if Im Quinn, Im analyzing the salary structure of this team. Some of this is self inflicted. While I am NOT laying all blame at the feet of Stafford, Im sorry but we have to start questioning whether he is earning his salary. He was paid to be a top end QB. My buddy and I had a long chat about this. Do you know where Stafford’s career QB rating is? Mid 80’s. He is STILL making the same mistakes a 3rd year guy makes, in year 10. Do you know where a Mid 80’s QB rating gets you? Andy Dalton. Would you pay Andy Dalton 125 million to come to be QB of your team? Id hope not.

Detroit needs a re-design. They need to do what current teams are doing. They need to keep building the offensive line, and POUR resources on defense. Then, they need to find a rookie QB. Like Chicago. Like Rams. Like Seattle did. Like a lot of teams are starting to do.

The fact is, you dont pay elite QB money unless you have an elite QB. We dont. You dont pay elite DE money unless you have an elite DE. We dont. We are paying for an elite Guard who is rivaling Ziggy in snaps. We are paying elite money for Wagner, who is clearly not elite.

The Lions have some promising young talent, surrounded by aging vets who don’t give a shit. Quinn needs to bite the bullet, and get young guys to come up in Patricia’s system. Fair or not, Stafford has had 10 years to prove himself, and all I hear is “he needs more weapons!” Folks, so did Joey Harrington. I see no other way around this. This team is built fundamentally wrong.


#16

And no offense, but for all the people insisting we wouldn’t be here with Caldwell, remember that Caldwell vehemently defended Austin as DC. Austin is currently managing a defense thats on pace to be the worst in the NFL. The Lions were already regressing under Caldwell.


#17

I think Decker is dealing with an injury. Wagner would be better with some stability at RG. Need an upgrade at TE. Defense needs some serious talent at LB and corner and safety.


#18

I see holes all over the place. On offense, Lang needs to go at RG, mostly for his own good. I guy with that many concussions and other injuries needs to shut it down before he ends up in really bad shape. Plus, they do need help at TE and maybe RB and WR. People are calling for JBC’s head, but I doubt another OC is going to make much difference. They can’t switch to a different offense in the middle of the season. And quite frankly the execution has not been even adequate. That’s the way it goes in pro sports, they fire the coach when things aren’t working out; I ain’t saying that they should or shouldn’t, but I’m not sure a new OC is going to matter.

Annnd they also got holes all over that defense IMHO. DE, DT, LB, CB, Safety, you name it. Frankly, Jarrad Davis is screwing up too often and so is Quin IMHO. And a bunch of others too. Maybe they’re being misused, maybe they don’t fit into Patricia’s defensive system, I dunno. But the way they’re playing it looks like they might not win another game this year. Maybe one or two more wins, if the other team doesn’t play well, but I think this team is moving in the wrong direction.


#19

Well, I’m starting at the top…

Rod Wood, Bob Quinn and Matt Patricia are here next year, 100 %. So, I’m not spending even a second thinking about giving up on them. Same with Stafford. He’s here, period. Construct a team that you can win with.

Easy money cuts = Quin, Lang. 15 mil-ish between the two of them in cap savings.
Easy money FA’s that we say goodbye to = Ansah, Blount
Holes to fill in the starting lineup:
Slot Receiver
Right Guard
Left Tackle??? What the heck happened here?
Right Defensive End
MIKE (Davis is a failure in the role. Admit the reach and move him to WILL.)
Safety 1
Safety 2
Corner 2

Depth players:
QB2
WR4, WR5
RB2, RB4
OT
OG
DE3, DE4
DT4
DB5, DB6

Problem is the guy shopping. He’s great at swapping out all of the depth guys, he’s not so good in placing the top talent. He’s all about the measurables one minute, then he’s drafting Davis and Tabor the next. He’s a spaz that I really have manic-like swings on. There are times I can’t stomach the thought of looking at him. Batman Boucher. Then there are times where things look pretty good on paper… or times when guys like KJ, Hand and Golladay contribute and you realize he’s not ~that~ much of a failure. Despite my growing disdain for Quinn, as I opened with, he’s going nowhere. So, there’s the money to spend and the places to spend it. Good luck.


#20

Let’s start with some positives and negatives.
Right tackle is getting beat like a tom-tom in pass protection. What can we do to help him out? The obvious thing is to help him out. So scheme, there. It seems to me that should count agaist Cooter.
Stafford has not been in sync. He just seems to be out of it, maybe mentally. Tate being out by trade, not consulting him about the trade or just a funk. That may be a time thing.
Defensively, I think there has been some bright spots. Slay being out exposed the rest of the secondary. Except for occasional lapses, the D-line is playing better. We have had poor LB’er play.
Drafting talent does not appear to be a problem. We have traded well. FA acquisitions helped more than hurt us. The Tate trade may have taken the winds out of the sails here and injuries have hurt us.
We may have to find answers for
CB, RG and RT… we need another safety and linebacker. And, now, we need another WR. I am confident we can fill some of those with free agents and the draft, but I am tired of awaiting the next fix.

David Edwards for right tackle in the draft. Maybe
Raekwon Davis for DE replacing Ziggy and his salary.
Pony up some cash Patrick Peterson and
Jimmie Collins.

My biggest downer was nor getting Peterson at the trade deadline and Mack going to the Bears. He would have looked great in Honolulu Blue or any other uniform than an NFC North uniform.