Okudah, the Lions' CBs Position Group and How the Draft Fell

Another thing that bothers me with the amount of money saved going into this year… is that we could have kept Kennard and Wagner. Why not keep them and have them compete with who you bring in? Competition is good, and it adds to our depth. Instead they just cut them… took some loss on the books and lose out on depth. Especially with the number of injuries we had last year, you’d think they’d be aware of that.

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RW…yes Snacks was a failure and that set us back a year as nose tackle is the most important position on this defense. In 2018 there was no nose tackle available and Quinn signed the cast off from the Titans and Broncos and that didn’t work.

A’Shawn was drafted for a different defense and he bolted for big bucks from the Rams. Quinn has drafted for this team for two years now. That is the fact. Specific players for this defense have been added like Hand, Austin Bryant, Tavai, our safeties (Walker and Harris) and AO from Penn State.

Kennard proved to not be what we needed. No harm in trying. But he wasn’t what we needed. He held his place here until Jamie Collins replaced him. Net upgrade in 2020. Glasgow was expensive and the Lions choose to save $ there likely replacing him with a rookie. I am fine with that business decision. Wagner has been replaced so no hole created.

Also, the locker room is being filled with Patricia guys, rightly or wrongly. We can be pissed at Patricia for Slay but it wasn’t working, Slay is gone and we added Trufant instead for less $ for similar results. I am cool with that business decision.

No single failed move hurt us more than Snack sucking in 2019. Showing up out-of-shape and playing like dog shit. There is no doubt in my mind that hurt more than Slay sulking. Robinson also failed to find his place in this defense or he would have been extended. But he wasn’t because we saw the results here in 2019 and they were bad. Robinson is a fine player…just not here now.

Now in 2020 Harrison is out (and out of the NFL maybe permanently). Danny Shelton is here now and that is a HUGE upgrade over 2019 Harrison who was time to retire bad. Collins is an upgrade on Kennard. Hand will be healthy. Austin Bryant will be healthy. Okudah and Trufant represent an upgrade over Melvin and Slay combined. Our safeties are more experienced, esp. Harris. And we added Harmon.

No doubt the transition to Patricia’s scheme and way of doing things has been rocky and yep, 2019 was a lost season and that sucks We also lost Stafford. But as the Lions fight through a scheme transition that has been rocky there also has been friction on a personal level. Slay, Glover Quin, Diggs, I think Harrison, Kennard and maybe others didn’t like what was happening. And they are all gone now. And that sucks. But the rub is that they have all been replaced by better guys now…or guys of similar talent:
Harrison got replaced by Danny Shelton.
Kennard got replaced by Jamie Collins.
Quardry Diggs got replaced by Harmon.
Slay got replaced by Trufant (a small downgrade).
Rashaad Melvin was replaced by Okudah (I think a large upgrade even in 2020).

Glasgow has yet to be replaced and A’Shawn Robinson has yet to be replaced.

I see a better secondary group and I see upgrades for this scheme. I am bothered this didn’t happen in 2019 but we are where we are. The final transition is happening now. And I like the results I am seeing. But there is still work to do. And there are resources available to do that.

To me I am looking straight at Jarrad Davis. I like him but I don’t think his game works well here. I think he is a chip that will help after the draft IF we get a real weakside LBer here. I am calling Curtis Weaver as the pick in rd. 2. We may keep Jarrad Davis as expensive LBer depth in 2020 but Weaver (or an edge guy like that) may make a Jarrad Davis expendable as we complete the defensive transition in 2020.

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Why on earth would you look at this team as 8-8? Believe what your eyes and the actual record tell you. This was not a competitive NFL team, not close. To flip the script from 3-13 to 13-3 (to actually get “good,” not just “not terrible”) requires a big injection of top-tier talent, total overhaul of coaching philosophy or both.

Quinn is in his fifth offseason overhauling this roster. If that’s not enough time to “get your guys,” you’re in the wrong business.


I wonder if they let Glasgow go because he turned into a part time player and their going to give the kid Benzschawel more playing time

Um, because the offense was clicking really well and then Stafford is out? You think they’re a 3 win team with Stafford?

As far as Quinn goes, he was drafting for another defense to begin with. Bringing Patricia in meant the need for an overhaul on D. So I’m not counting the prior seasons. He has a lot to prove, and like today, but looking at this team as a bottom barrel club I think is inaccurate.

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Ashawn was not a fit by any stretch for Austin, neither was Ngata.

Let me ask is Trufant Dennard better than Slay Melvin? How about Trufant Amakumura? I’d say yep.

Shelton and upgrade from Snacks , sure in the limited time he’ll be on the field then what? The guy plays less than 50 % of the snaps, so then who?

You keep going through hole created hole filled. Kenmard wanted to be here and was. C. Hole created , hole filled. Melvin gone Oruwariyae should fill hole, Roberts, McCrae, Ford, Virgin depth. If not confident sign Dennard or Prince to a short deal. Creating and filling holes is spinning your wheels.

Sorry, 5 yrs of Quinn has not fixed the Oline, 5 yrs of Quinn has not fixed the run game. That’s nothing to do with Patricia.

Patricia supposedly wanted Brown for his scheme, Quinn drafts a CB. Quinn didn’t get the players Austin wanted for his scheme either.

So again the truth of the matter, Oline, no run game, in 5 yrs. Dline is worse after 2 yrs and not as deep. Bryant is nothing more than a 4th Rd question mark. Hand is a 4th rd health concern, with potential. Shelton is merely a very good rotational guy period. 48% snaps means rotation. With who?

I’m glad you are happy, but I don’t buy in

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Total BS on the idea this team is not competitive. f we have Stafford those last 8 games you are being dishonest if you argue this team doesn’t win a majority or more of those games. We were on our 3rd strong QB for a number of those games too. If the Lions go 5-3 to end the season that is a 8-7-1 team and that is a reasonable way to look at 2019. With Matt we sweep the Bears, we beat the Redskins, I think we beat Dallas (a game we lead), I think we beat the Broncos and I think we beat the Packers to close the season. Those are all games we were in position to win without Matt.

Quinn is in his third season of the scheme for Patricia.

The most legit issue with Quinn should be keeping Caldwell for two seasons as those are two lost seasons and additional issues as we drafted for Caldwell and Austin, not for Patricia. That is a hell of a point to make, people made it at the time and it is an accurate and compelling point. We are suffering from that right now. Guys like Jarrad Davis and Teez Tabor and not drafted to fit a Patricia scheme for example.

We were 3-4-1 with Stafford so, let’s go with 7-8-1 being quite likely. We were 6-10 the yr before. Spinning our wheels. Which I figure we’ll be this yr 7-9 to 8-8, still spinning our wheels

I agree this is a 3-4 win roster, the difference is Stafford carrying it

@rw979802 & @MyLions
Love the contributions here. I want to add that , IMO, TJ Lang and Wagner looked like solid signings on paper. Daniels was more debatable, as well as Snacks (made immediate impact, if he had only kept with it).

We sure have had our fair share of injuries and FA letdowns.


I love your optimism @mylions. I welcome your posts. Sadly, I can’t join in when it comes to the Lions. They’re going to fail. It’s going to start all over again next season.


Remind me again what our record was when Stafford was playing?

We folded in the fourth quarter of pretty much every game, with and without Stafford, because we have one of the weakest defensive rosters in pro football.

If, as a fan of a team that hasn’t won a playoff game since the 90s, you’re cool giving your GM a decade to figure out how to build a playoff team, that’s your prerogative. I look at every other NFL team run in a remotely professional manner, and I expect much better, much sooner.

Die-hard Lions fans always assume that, because a GM’s decisions seemed reasonable when they made them, they can’t be judged as bad when they don’t work out. If you’re not capable of turning a .500 team into a consistent playoff contender in five offseasons, you have no business being an NFL GM.

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Dude is smart too, though. Not just optimism. One of my fav posters.


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Ngata was on Mayhew, not Quinn.

What are you talking about Dennard and Amakumara? I think Trufant and Okudah is better than Slay and Melvin/Hayden.

Snacks fell off a cliff in 2019. I loved that guy and he stopped caring at some point. He fell out of shape and he was one of the worst DTs in the game in 2019. Shelton played 48% of all defensive snaps for the Patriots:

Harrison played 46% of all of our snaps. Seems like a seamless transition there:

Past that we get Hand back. We are also gambling a healthy Nick Williams is better than an unhealthy Mike Daniels. Seems like an upgrade considering Mike hardly played for us and lost snaps to John Atkins later in the season.

I guess I don’t get your point RW. Quinn seems to be finally finding guys who get the system and are upgrades over guys that had a shot here but didn’t contribute to having a decent defense. I like Kennard but we sucked with him here and I see Jamie Collins as an upgrade I am glad we made. Wht is that an issue?

Nope, Robinson isn’t replaced yet. Glasgow isn’t replaced yet. But the draft is one round in.

In terms of a running game…yea that is on Quinn and it goes back to keeping Caldwell who kept Prince. But we also kept Cooter for one season with Patricia too. That was and is a mistake we are paying for now. But with Bevell finally on board it appears we finally have a play for the OL. And yes, it is okay to be pissed at that as yes the Lions spun their wheels on the running game under the Lions averagedCaldwell/Cooter and we finally have an OC I like who knows how to run the damn football.

I was wrong to support keeping Caldwell for two extra seasons. I was also wrong to support Cooter for one more season. Those moves cost us. I was dead wrong there.

So yep, time has been wasted. Mistakes have been made. But I like the path we are on right now. I don’t care if holes are created from past mistakes if the answers to those holes is better. And I see better answers on the roster right now.

And I like the Okudah pick a lot. I think this secondary is maybe as strong as I have seen it in years and years. With Walker, a young Will Harris, D. Harmon, Trufant, Okudah, Coleman, AO, Agnew annd so on. Maybe since the early 1990s?

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Thanks BigNat, again sorry for the negativity. I just really struggle with the direction.

I was against the Lang Wagner deal. I actually didn’t mind Wagner. My problem was Lang. He was injured when we signed him and GB was letting him go because of injuries. When healthy he was good. Like him to this day. Wanted to keep a much younger a PB caliber Warford

Oddly loved the Snacks trade, was against the extension.

I truly hope My’s optimism pays off. I really don’t want to blow this thing up. Love Stafford want to see him here and win it all. If we don’t turn it around now I fear we blow it all up,


I feel your pain, man. But I outlined the ways the defense appears to be upgraded, on paper. We’ll have to wait and see.

LOL, I’m being “dishonest” by not assuming the rosiest possible scenario for a counterfactual? Stafford is great, but he’s not great enough to cover for a garbage defense and garbage oline–both units that Bob Quinn had been “building” for four offseasons before last year.

I seem to remember a few other teams that lost starting QBs last year–even lost backup QBs–and managed to win more than 3 games. If anybody’s being dishonest here, it’s you–mostly with yourself.

You also gloss over a key fact: A big reason last year was a wasted season is that so many players rejected the head coach. Or rather, you talk about it as if it’s some external force, like the weather, that couldn’t have been predicted or avoided. Like, we just had a locker room full of malcontents, oh well, who could possibly expect an NFL coach to get his players to buy in?

Someone decided to behave the way Patricia behaved taking over this team. Someone decided to burn bridges with several of our best players, to the point we’d have to dump talent and scramble for replacements. And someone decided to hand the franchise over to this guy in the first place.

3-13 is an entirely accurate measurement of what Bob Quinn has built here going into his fifth season.

The only team that might be worse than the Lions is Jacksonville. Quinn signed his walking papers with the selection of Okudah last night. It’s one of the worst selections made in the last 2 decades of the NFL draft. I thought I would be mad about it, but I’m not. I’m just happy that Quinn and Patricia will be gone sooner rather than later.

There is no defending the pick. There is no defending Bob Quinn and Matt Patricia. And there is no defending this organization.

Okudah better be starting day 1! Otherwise, it was a wasted pick.

Personally, I thinks he’s too robotic. Watch the tape at the combine. NFL team will attack him early and often. He’s prone to the PI as well

The point on Dennard or Amakamura, I asked is Trufant Dennard a better combo than Slay Melvin? Is Trufant Amakumura better than Slay Melvin? Yes Do you disagree?

Those guys and Ryan are available. Sign one if you don’t think Oruwaye is ready.

Draft Brown you have then upgraded the secondary AND a big upgrade to your Dline, a guy to rotate with Shelton and play next to Shelton. A major improvement over Ashawn. The guy your HC and defacto DC wanted to employ his scheme, assumings that report was accurate.

Quinn resigned Ngata.

The point on spinning your wheels, still stands every hole you create and have to fill leads to dead cap hits and not improving other areas that need it.

This draft very deep at RB and WR, will we take advantage? Will we be trying to fill more of those holes we created?

Okudah should become the whipping boy just like Ebron was