Harmon to Tavon Wilson is not a huge upgrade… nor is it an upgrade to Diggs. Trufant is not in the same tier as Slay. The Lions are in a world of hurt… you can try and put your own spin on it but the Lions are not better without Slay lol.
But could it not be argued that if they are not throwing the CB’s way they are having a bigger impact then the edge guy? I am not saying Okudah is a lock down guy but if he turns into one, you take a large portion of the field away!
If we really think that Trufant and Harmon are upgrades, or equivalents…then we need to take CY and see if he is the missing piece to make this D work. I remeber Quinn saying during the season that we needed a guy with “demon speed” on defence and we lacked that…wonder if that doesn’t mean that CY is the pick if he is available…I also wonder if that means Simmons is in play1
Fact is both are extremely important … coverage and pressure they both help each other … Peanut Tillman CB vs Dwight Freeney DE…similar amount of games started & played in career in the same era of Football …
The advanced stats are not available to me but how many of Tillman’s passes defended ended drives on 3rd down …these are sack worthy accomplishments as Sacks are on 3rd down
These guys were both great players, how can you say either were not as important as the other …Tillman’s combined 82 forced possible turnovers …(How many of the 44 FF were recovered by his team I do not know) …
The value of CB’s is in no way less then a quality pass rusher …we cant lose going for the best CB in the Draft in Okudah… a guy that could be special …as you can’t be wrong drafting Chase Young .
Right, this is an advantage of having a shut down corner that I think we all underestimate: he contributes simply by blanketing his guy, which is something that will often go unnoticed as the play doesn’t come his way.
Just think of the scheme advantage it gives a guy like Belichick to not have to worry about defending a chunk of the field. I think taking out ‘half the field’ is hyperbole, but if the offense trots out 2 receivers, it’s probably close to that.
I would still take Chase Young without hesitation if he’s available, but I do think the value of corner is rising drastically.
If you have a poor secondary that doesn’t provide adequate coverage then the QB gets rid of the ball sooner to his #1 or #2 read, even against a good pass rush. BUT - if you have a poor pass rush that doesn’t apply adequate pressure then the QB can go through his reads 2 or 3 times, and that sucks just as bad. Pick your poison, last year we had both problems.
I think losing Slay offsets the gain of Trufant and Harmon, they do need another starter CB. I do not see any gain nor loss on the DL when it comes to the pass rush, but it sucked last year and it looks like it will suck again. Drafting Okudah definitely helps the secondary, but drafting Young definitely helps the pass rush and the guy does play well against the run too. And personally I don’t see a big difference in positional value between a CB and an Edge guy if both are at the pro-bowl level. Which many say they are.
This discussion might be moot cuz Young is probably off the board when the Lions pick at #3. As it stands now, either way is an improvement and you can’t get both. If they sign an FA CB before the draft maybe that changes the calculus. If the guy is CB starter quality then it makes Young look better at #3 if he’s there. Or will the Lions get a really good TD offer to move down a couple spots and still get Okudah? If they can get an extra 1st or 2nd rounder maybe that makes the most sense, cuz it ain’t like they don’t have issues at other positions.
Honestly I am totally fine with ending up with any of Chase Young, Odukah or LBer Simmons. I am cool with that. I even get going OT if we go that route. I would not be as happy with a tackle but I like that value.
If we go Okudah that position group looks really good for the next two years. Trufant locked up, Okudah, Amani O. Slot CB Justin Coleman, J. Agnew and whoever else we want to keep (Tony McRae?). Add to that Harmon, Tracy Walker, Will Harris, Jayron Jearse (a signing I really like), Killibrew and maybe CJ Moore and that is a very, very solid secondary.
But what about pressure? Well, we are getting Hand back healthy and that helps. Nick Williams is healthy and he is better than an unhealthy Mike Daniels. And Austin Bryant will be in the mix and he is a talented young player too. Okwara is also presumed healthy after a groin injury in 2019. Is that enough? Nope. We need more help there. Is Chase Young the only way to get better there? Nope but he is a GREAT option.
I think many undervalue the importance of a great CB, esp. in terms of the draft. Most feel like pressure trumps coverage. But I don’t think that us true overall. It is a balancing game.
My preferred choice of action is to draft Chase Young but before that sign Dre Kirkpatrick. That gives us a decent #2 in 2020. Then draft a CB hopefully with our second round pick. Give that guy and Amani a little rime to adjust. But also add Chase Young. That is my preferred choice. Say A.J. Terrell makes it to rd. 2:
Trufant, Kirkpatrick, Terrell, Amani O., Justin Coleman and Agnew. Yep, I like that. AND we added Chase Young.
I believe it hyperbole as well, but if a guy like Okudah prevents us getting beat deep…without safety help…then he is worth his weight in gold. I want Young and obviously any pressure he applies can also prevent the large chunk plays…and ultimately could mean the opposition needs a chunk play to maintain their drive…but I would be more then satisfied with Okudah as a consolation.
Slay was one of my favorite players but he seemed to shy away from support in the run game…I don’t see that with Okudah…and think he has the potential to be better then Slay…but lots needs to happen before that actually happens.
What’s not talked about in this analysis is contribution while on the rookie pay scale. Even if Okudah eventually becomes the better player, it’s far more likely that Young gets better results for the first 3 years or so, just because the transition for that position seems to be easier.
This is a common belief …it is just not true. Tillman was the best CB on the team …the stats say you cant avoid him. In order to utilize your best offensive weapon through the Air you cant avoid him . If you do avoid going to your #1 Receiver because that CB is elite you have successfully altered the Offensive game plan or at minimum the effectiveness of the offense minus your #1 WR . The same way you chip and double a DE or roll out the other way or run to the other side …you can plan accordingly for both positions .
I agree… but in Patricia’s system this is not the case . Okudah is as advertised …I know this . You put him outside in this system and it is a man up scenario …Zone , passing off defenders are not much in play here …Okudah in this system can shine year #1…Chase Young week in week out will have to face the best LT’s in the game …he is a great prospect I would love but he is not going to dominate the way he did at Ohio and not with what else we have on our D-Line
First off Slay was not an elite corner. There’s no doubt he’s top 15 to 20 in the league but elite is a whole different animal on the football field. Okudah has the potential to be elite. To me he looks like a Jalen Ramsey that loves to hit. There are four positions that are more valuable than others just based on what an elite player at that position can do to a game or gameplan. QB is far and away #1. After that it’s DE, OT and CB. Having an elite CB on a five year rookie contract is insane value. With all that being said I still run to the podium if Chase Young is still on the board.
The only stud cornerback available was probably Byron Jones. The reason he got let go was cus of the price tag. It’s hard to find stud corners in free agency. Look at Clowney who is still on the market and probably more of a “stud” than Byron.
Based on what? Him having to cover slow ass WRs in the Big Ten for 2 seconds before Chase Young decapitated the opposing QB?
I’ve seen no evidence Okudah can cover legit NFL WRs, let alone a #1 or #2 NFL WR. He had to cover below average WRs most of his games, in a more run happy conference, in weather not ideal for passing. Were trash like Shea Patterson, Brian Lewerke, Jack Coen and Sean Clifford supposed to give him fits?
OSU played 2 good teams last year. 1 of them was Wisconsin who has been a run happy team for the last century and the other was Clemson, who gave them their only loss. The rest of their games were against garbage teams with QBs who have noodle arms and WRs who are now bagging groceries. A lot of guys will look good when they play against no competition and still have to clutch and grab.
Based on what I watched which was every game of his career & how he played the WR’s he had in front of him .
Because I understand that Okudah with Meyer played press man coverage on the regular in a limited role in 2017 & starting CB in 2018 and that in 2019 he played in Man & Zone and shined…He showed of the ball hawking skills and benefit for CB’s when in off zone coverage’s in 2019
Because I know that he operated in a system with only one deep Safety nearly all of the time and the transition here with us should be seamless .
Okudah’s traits and characteristics that he possess are ELITE and necessary to be successful at CB…They do not grow on trees… Okudah type prospects are rare . He has every trait and characteristic needed… 4.4 Speed, Elite Burst and Explosiveness , his Height is perfect for big and small WR’s not to tall , his Length & Instincts …to go with his phenomenal back pedal & loose hips …
His feet…The quickness is second to none ELITE , balance and transition in change of direction near flawless …His Tackling is TOP NOTCH no fear in run support …His production in games was great …
You want to focus on competition level and it matters I wont pretend it doesn’t but not in the way you are using it here … Look at guys like Jeremy Chinn & Kyle Dugger at S , from small schools and the teams that will be lining up for these guys …Traits , skills , measurable items , and the production …
Slay is a top Corner and the receivers he faced coming into the league a few good ones in a game or two…He played them & looked avg against OBJ , Landry , Mike Williams ,Cooper…His weekly competition level WR’s not strong
This clutching and grabbing that you claim here is so false…Handsy is not clutching and grabbing …Okudah is a physical corner and uses his hands well & appropriately …Hand fighting is prevalent at the NFL level for Corners that can stay with and battle WR’s at the get off and at the time right before a catch or incompletion & especially on vertical routes or contested jump balls …he is a press man corner… they are more handsy .