What's that you say, tu quoque?

Here’s your quid pro quo, i.e. fire the prosecutor that’s investigating me and my son or you won’t get the $1 Billion.

How could it be a crime to request an investigation of that?

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It’s a lefty thing. You wouldn’t understand.:rofl:

OK, first, because this was a post about fallacies I’ll respond in that light. I think since it’s the same country and the same accusation, it’s not too far afield to discuss the Biden thing.

Second, if Biden was the kind of old fool who would indeed brag about strong-arming the Ukrainians into not investigating his son by threatening to withhold military aid, then he should face whatever justice that would call for. And certainly preclude him from running for POTUS in 2020. And that he’d do in front of the Council on Foreign Relations, boy that would be a whopper!

Well, that’s what Trump wants his base to think. It’s just a smear campaign. Which that video is part of. See, that video is Biden threatening a Ukrainian prosecutor alright, and threatening to withhold aid, yep. But… NOT on his son’s behalf. In fact, it served to put his own son more at risk by ramping up anti-corruption efforts in Ukraine.

Biden’s trip was in fact to pressure the pro-Russian Ukrainian gov’t over corruption. It’s ex-president and many others are now in exile in Russia to avoid prosecution. The threat over aid was made to prosecutor who WASN’T taking the Obama’s admin’s threats seriously and NOT going after corruption in Ukraine aggressively enough. That Hunter was involved with a corrupt company was embarrassing to Uncle Joe, but is a side detail to what was actually going on.

You can read about the original story written about this “scandal” in 2015 here:

and here:

This is real the apex of the right wing spin machine’s attempt to undermine US democracy, hopefully. Fallacious indeed.

Third, I’m not a “leftist”. I don’t believe in the radical redistribution of wealth. And I support law and order and prosecution of anyone in gov’t breaking the law no matter whose side they’re on. I would say I’m a centrist for lack of a better term. I’m definitely anti-fascist, as I’m sure everyone else here is with the possible exception of Sid. :slight_smile:

And see how much effort it takes to dispel one little video that purports a lie… compared to how easy it is to say the lie itself? That’s the magic of propaganda. Something Trump does have actual talent for, his only real talent.

I want this questioned answered. From what I’m told, Burisma was absolutely NOT under investigation when the prosector was fired. The prosecutor was then fired, in an effort to ramp up corruption investigations. So…once the old prosecutor was fired, the new prosecutor immediately launched an investigation into Burisma? And what were his findings on Burisma, Hunter Biden and Joe Biden? And do we have any other examples of this new prosecutor “ramping up” his corruption investigations and prosecutions?

Admission by Biden = Fiction

Innuendo and suspicion against Trump = Fact

Got it.

False equivalence. The currency of the age. And what this post is about. Do your own homework and figure it out.

How is it a false equivalence ?? You accuse Trump of doing exactly what Biden admitted to doing.

Dude, read where the story came from, the original story and followup linked to above. Trump is on the freakin phone recorded doing this, the Biden thing is not what you seem to think it is. Please read the stories. C’mon Biden isn’t that stupid! Trump is, by all appearances.

I watched the full video. Biden admitted doing it. Are you saying the video was faked ??

I read what is available of the transcript. There is nothing there.

The video is real, of course. But it’s not what it’s being claimed to be. The original story in the Intercept and a followup about how it was sent into the right wing spin machine, is linked in my post above.

I think what Redwing is trying to imply is that it isn’t about Biden using aid to stop an investigation into his son, rather it’s to get the prosecutor fired. Which is true, according the the video evidence. What’s also true is that’s STILL quid pro quo, fire him or you don’t get aid, you have 6 hours. THAT’S black and white and had Trump said anything close to that on his phone call, he’d be strung up. But he didn’t, not even close, that’s the real difference between the two. The left is trying to imply Trump did a wink and a nod with some words, but it’s not there otherwise it would be open and shut, which it clearly isn’t.

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NO. What Biden did what NORMAL diplomatic pressure. The thrust is to force the Ukrainians to clean up corruption - and now the then president is in exile in Russia, along with a bunch of cronies. Biden’s pressure was not for his own self interest, it was in the interest of US foreign policy and looking after the investment in foreign aid, proper fiduciary oversight if you will.

What Trump was doing in his OWN self interest to smear a political rival, namely Biden, ironically enough, who’s leading him in the early polls.

That’s how upside down and backwards this story has been spun. And this sort of propaganda obviously works.

One day soon PT Barnum’s tent will fall down for good. Until then, it’s the same show every day. And people eat it up.

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So you’re just going to throw out what was actually said by Trump when he said “do me a favor, investigate crowdstrike” (paraphrasing but pretty damn close)? Bc he doesn’t bring up Biden until later in the conversation and asked him about looking into Biden bragging about stopping the prosecution. Aide was also never mentioned, Biden openly said it…

I found this on a Ukrainian news site…

The quality and independence of Ukraine’s media as a whole are still limited…

I could say the same thing.

I’m still awaiting responses on my questions.

“I want these questions answered. From what I’m told, Burisma was absolutely NOT under investigation when the prosector was fired. The prosecutor was then fired, in an effort to ramp up corruption investigations. So…once the old prosecutor was fired, the new prosecutor immediately launched an investigation into Burisma? And what were his findings on Burisma, Hunter Biden and Joe Biden? And do we have any other examples of this new prosecutor “ramping up” his corruption investigations and prosecutions?”

Uh, well you do have the ex-president and his cronies living in exile. And as far as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about a connected kid making easy money. Isn’t that how America works?

So what you are telling me is that despite everything available, you simply “bought” an excuse without ever doing a minute of research. Is that what I’m hearing? I’m okay with doing research and coming to the same conclusion. I’m not okay with not doing the research and parroting back talking points as if you did the research.

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LOL, no that’s what you’re doing. I did more than a minute of research. Hey, and it’s not me who has to justify his support for the current occupant of the WH. That’s you.

On another note, Biden is indeed Trump’s biggest electoral threat. I don’t think America wants to vote for any of the left leaning Dems and the centrist Handsome Joe is going to look pretty good after another year of Cheeto’s gaslighting nightmare. And the narcissist creep knows it. And just might get himself ousted because he used his office to undermine his chief political opponent and then tried to cover it up and obstruct the investigation into it. So rich. It’s like a Shakespearean drama. Or a Greek comedy really, if there’s a happy ending to it all.